Vegetarianism rant

[pandora_parrot]

I appreciate that not everyone is a vegetarian and that there are many ways to accomplish the goal of reducing animal suffering. Although I disagree with them, I don't really get all that upset by people that simply philosophically disagree with the idea that animals deserve any form of ethical treatment. But the people I really can't stand are the people that claim to care about animals but don't raise a finger to change anything, ESPECIALLY those that excuse it by saying that they "really love the taste of meat too much to give it up."

You know what? I absolutely LOVE meat. I used to eat meat all the time. I couldn't have a good meal unless it was 70% meat. I ate massive steaks as raw as they could safely be made. I loved the taste of those bloody juices running down my face. I would help my dad make big giant burgers that we would stuff full of all sorts of seasonings and throw on the grill. Fresh salmon would make my eyes roll into the back of my head with how incredible it would taste. And there's really nothing so yummy as chicken and all the different ways you can cook it.

But I did it. I'm a vegetarian and have been since 2002! I've "cheated" a few times, but for the most part have been successful in avoiding the consumption of meat. The fact that I continue, to this day, to absolutely adore the taste of meat, is no obstacle for me. I refuse to eat it.

Using your "love of meat" as an excuse to do nothing is just sheer laziness, especially when you consider all the other ways that you can contribute to a healthier planet and reduced animal suffering! If you actually cared about this stuff, you could just eat less meat. Keep it as a once-a-week treat or something. Or perhaps you don't eat less, but make sure that all of your meat is purchased from local farmers that treat their animals more appropriately. Or you could try to avoid eating the most horribly abused animals and stick to animals that tend to be raised under more appropriate conditions. There's a whole lot you can do.

But don't tell me that you care about this stuff and then make excuses for not doing anything. That's a disgrace to yourself and a disgrace to people that philosophically disagree with the notion of "animal rights." Either deny that you care or start doing something. Stop trying to have it both ways.

Comments

[peaceofpie.livejournal.com]

Many vegetarians contribute to the problem by telling meat-eaters that they aren't making any difference at all unless they give up meat completely, or that meat-eaters must not really care about animals if they eat meat, or treating someone who has cut back to once-or-twice-a-week meat eating like they're a lesser person than someone who is a strict vegan (while simultaneously claiming that they don't think they're better than anyone else :-P).

I say this as someone who used to do all those things. Yes, really. ;-)

The problem is that when we talk down to meat-eaters, most don't go "Oh wow, you're totally right, I will eat less meat now!" Most, I've found, go "Wow, vegetarians are mean. I don't want to be mean like those vegetarians. I'd rather eat meat."

I highly recommend you get yourself a copy of the book Living Among Meat Eaters, if you haven't already. :)

[maradydd.livejournal.com]

The sort of vegetarians you're talking about are also really annoying to those of us who are obligate omnivores. Anyone who says "but you don't NEED to eat meat" should really try walking around with my DNA for a while. I have tried vegetarianism. I have tried every source of vegetable protein imaginable -- soy, beans, nuts, legumes, spirulina -- and my body doesn't recognise it as "protein that keeps maradydd fed". I'm constantly ravenous and my brain shuts down, to the point where I can't do a simple algebra problem. (In my line of work, that's a no-go.)

I do my best to eat meat that was treated well while it was alive, the same way I do my best to eat plants that were treated well while they were alive. Working in biology has given me a whole new respect for plants. Plants communicate chemically, and will change their own chemistry to protect members of their kin group in response to environmental threats. We don't have the sensory organs to directly observe how plants do the things they do, but apart from being sessile, they sure do a lot of the same things that animals do.

[paradox-puree.livejournal.com]

The sort of vegetarians you're talking about are also really annoying to those of us who are obligate omnivores.
I really really dislike militant hardcore vegans for this reason, among others.

[paradox-puree.livejournal.com]

Sounds like a good book.

I generally try to support ANY action someone might take to better animal conditions, no matter how small. While I have my opinions on the most effective way to do so, I don't think that it is at all appropriate of me to criticize people that don't do things my way. All I really want is for people to care and to do something about it. I really don't care what they specifically do as long as its something.

[maradydd.livejournal.com]

This might sound like sarcasm, but I swear it's not: are there people out there who take plant suffering as seriously as they do animal suffering? If not ... why? Plants certainly experience distress, and the signals they emit in response can be measured empirically. We can't hear it or see it without specialised equipment (though other plants and IIRC also some insects, possibly also other pollinators, have the appropriate cellular receptors to detect it), but it's definitely there.

[paradox-puree.livejournal.com]

Actually, yes. There are indeed some people that do that. I believe they are called "fructarians" since they only eat fruit.

[mantic-angel.livejournal.com]

Well, just because they take plant suffering as seriously doesn't mean they don't still eat them. I think you know my attitudes here, though~

Does remind me of Jainism, though. Now THAT is hardcore.

[viesti.livejournal.com]

From what I recall, Jainists will carry a broom with them when they walk along the street, sweeping in front of them to make sure they don't step on ants or other easy-to-not-see lifeforms.

I believe they also wait for fruit to fall from the tree through the natural course of events before they eat, too.

Awesome people. Responsible for much of India's cultural heritage, and I believe they're also the reason Hindus adopted vegetarianism.

[skipperofarc.livejournal.com]

They also believe women are inherently evil and the root of sin. I'm not a huge fan of that part.

[lisalees.livejournal.com]

I do not own and/or operate an automobile. May I use my environmental credits to have sashimi with my rice? Nyu?

[paradox-puree.livejournal.com]

Mrowr?

... I should say that I cheated the other day and had a few pieces of sashimi and OHMYGODSITWASSOGOOD...

Heh.... *hide*

[chirik.livejournal.com]

I tend to be somewhere in between. I can be quite happy eating a vegetarian diet, and even lean that way at times, but sometimes I want meat, and have no problem with it.

I realize you make the distinction in this post, but especially the beginning, feels like you're saying that if you eat meat, that you believe animals don't deserve ethical treatment.

Personally, I believe animals should be treated ethically, /but/ that doesn't mean that you can't eat meat. It refers to how the animal is treated upto, and including, the slaughter. Honestly, a lot of our meat really isn't from ethical handling, but I do not believe that killing an animal so we can eat meat is automatically unethical.

[paradox-puree.livejournal.com]

you're saying that if you eat meat, that you believe animals don't deserve ethical treatment.
Hmm... Why do you get that? I was trying to very clearly distinguish between caring people that eat meat and uncaring people that eat meat...

I do not believe that killing an animal so we can eat meat is automatically unethical.
I agree, up to a point. I don't believe that the act of killing another being for food is intrinsically evil. However, I think there are some serious considerations about it that need to be addressed, considerations that are ignored by much of U.S. culture.

[dv-girl.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I think there's too much focus on cruelty to animals in the vegetarian community. Not that it's bad to have a conscience, but rather, what bothers me most about the american diet is the environmental footprint it leaves.

Everyone should have learned something about this whole energy pyramid thing when they were kids. Animals are horribly inefficient machines. You could grow vegetables to feed 20 people easily on the same amount of space and resources it takes to raise enough beef to feed 1 person.

Meat is pretty easy to produce and it has a high mark-up. Our over consumption leads directly to people cutting down forest and slaughtering wolves and mountain lions. So that's where it bugs me.

Besides. You appreciate things more when you don't have them on a regular basis and meat is much more expensive than many vegetarian alternatives. Why not save money and have meat as a real treat that you seriously enjoy instead of it just being biomass that you shovel in without thinking about it too much.

[paradox-puree.livejournal.com]

For me, the animal suffering stuff is more important. But that's just me. I think the environment stuff is also really important, just not *as* important.

I honestly believe that food that is healthier for the environment is also healthier for the human body.

[cyberspice.livejournal.com]

I find anyone who's either a hypocrite or preachy anoying so that means both the meat eaters you describe and the radical vegans who, to be honest, unless they grow everything themselves can never fulfill what they preach.

I compromise to the best of my ability. I read the blurb on everything I eat. I filled my fridge yesterday at Wholefoods (I want to find a farmers market but I don't really know the area). I bought one thing with meat in. A salad with free-range chicken. And I bought some smoked salmon. I really tried but I'm also trying to cut down on fat too so milk proteins are not too good and I have to admit although I can cook it in interesting ways after a while tofu gets to me. I need to source some soy mince.

[maradydd.livejournal.com]

You might find www.farmersmarket.net (http://www.farmersmarkets.net/) useful.

A quick google also indicates that there's a monthly farmer's market and an "Organic Farm Shop" in Pickering; also, at least as of 2006, the Leyburn Farmer's Market takes place on the fourth Saturday of every month, so "later today" for you.

I miss Yorkshire.

(edit to fix borked html)

[cyberspice.livejournal.com]

Hi there. Thanks for that. But actually I mean in Silicon Valley as I'm currently in Sunnyvale :-) There are three farmers markets close to my home in Yorkshire, Leeds, Headingly and Otley.

I notice you know Jo (ant_girl) and Richard (steer). You didn't go to York Uni at one point did you :-) It seems to reinforce my current theory that on LJ there's only about two degrees of freedom rather than the usual six. It amazes me just how many people on my friends list have people on their friends list who have people on their friends list who I know.

[maradydd.livejournal.com]

Oh! Well, I'm pretty sure the San Jose Farmer's Market is still going on, and that this is the time for it -- I lived in SJ in 2006 and they had ads up at all the VTA stations.

I didn't go to York, no, but I was seeing Derek (who's friends with Jo and Richard and all that lot) long-distance for about a year, and visited York for a few weeks in the summer of 2003 and over Christmas holidays that year. There's a non-zero possibility we might have run into one another at some goth event, actually.

[cyberspice.livejournal.com]

Small world eh. I know Derek too. He lives just around the corner from a good friend of mine Zoe. yes we probably did run in to one another at some goth event.

[paradox-puree.livejournal.com]

and the radical vegans who, to be honest, unless they grow everything themselves can never fulfill what they preach.
Yeah. I have yet to meet someone that can clearly articulate a well-reasoned argument for absolute militant veganism. Most folks seem to have this belief that vegetables just fall magically from the sky and never ever ever ever hurt any people or animals ever. *rolls eyes*

EDIT: Correction. I have yet to meet someone that is actually living up to their hardcore militant vegan beliefs. I agree with you: The only way they can truly fulfill those beliefs is to grow or create everything they consume. What I have not heard a good argument for is veganism that includes eating vegetables bought from the store, or going out to restaurants.

I compromise to the best of my ability.
*chuckles* You don't need to defend yourself to me, hon.

[maradydd.livejournal.com]

I also haven't heard anything resembling good reasoning for the "honey == cruelty" position to which hardcore militant vegans subscribe, but that's a fairly small piece of the puzzle.

[peaceofpie.livejournal.com]

Although I am not an absolute militant vegan, I can articulate a well-reasoned argument for being one. If one's belief is that factory farming is wrong under any circumstances (which IS my belief), then it follows logically from that that one would do everything one could to prevent it and to disable others from supporting it. Like, I believe that it is wrong to beat up kittens, and if I ever saw someone beating up a kitten I would do everything I could to make SURE they stopped beating up that kitten and never beat up another kitten again. So it seems to me congruent with a belief system that says "factory farming is wrong" to also do everything one can to stop others from supporting it...not just to refuse to support it oneself. So, in fact, it is my choice to treat my decision to be vegan as if it is merely a personal choice and not actually something tied to a system that lots of people have to stop supporting in order to end the unethical practice I object to, which is incongruent with the belief that factory farming is wrong.

[nphoenixdragon.livejournal.com]

I'm in complete agreement with you.

[inflectionpoint.livejournal.com]

Interesting.

I used to be veg for environmental reasons. I then became an omnivore, because it was important for me to be able to eat whatever was put before me, because it was important for me to not make a fuss over food or not attach righteousness to my food choices. For me that means eating what's in front of me, and finishing it. And it's had some good effects on me, it's made me look at my consumption and look at my waste. I've become much more careful about waste and much more careful about getting good use out of what I eat.

It's weird. I default to veg at home, or when not around others and not cooking for others. And yet I won't attach a name and I won't claim that name. But I do respect those who do.